Impa
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Post by Impa on May 21, 2020 19:57:11 GMT -5
RIP Chaos Leaf  |
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Korgu Chideh
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Post by Korgu Chideh on May 21, 2020 20:26:26 GMT -5
anyway, kohga and oven are right
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Zelda
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Post by Zelda on May 21, 2020 20:52:26 GMT -5
Ur-boss-a is perfection. You can't convince me otherwise.
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King Hyrule
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Round 13
May 21, 2020 20:54:03 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by King Hyrule on May 21, 2020 20:54:03 GMT -5
Sleepy thoughts...
Sidon is the last Courage player left and I bet he uses this massively to his advantage, maybe start a Power v Wisdom war
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Korgu Chideh
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Post by Korgu Chideh on May 21, 2020 20:59:37 GMT -5
Can someone die from an excess of hypocrisy?
if urbosa isn't careful her weird assumption that this is a place where normative judgments count for something in the face of arithmetic will get her killed
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Korgu Chideh
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Post by Korgu Chideh on May 21, 2020 21:01:54 GMT -5
but that's a very niche focus of mine i've just always found it weird when players think other players are being hypocritical like yeah............it's the self-interest
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Korgu Chideh
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Post by Korgu Chideh on May 21, 2020 21:03:18 GMT -5
anyway she is very perceptive and that took her all of, what, fifteen minutes to elucidate? but of course it was a very busy tribal etc etc
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Korgu Chideh
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Post by Korgu Chideh on May 21, 2020 21:03:47 GMT -5
not even touching ep*na's two sentence contribution. go girl give us nothing
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Zelda
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Post by Zelda on May 21, 2020 22:17:43 GMT -5
Oaki:
I think that Oven honestly is my favourite to win here. He's even more of an underdog than I am, I relied on immunity wins to get to nine but his name is constantly coming up but nobody can get him out. Also he has an idol nullifier that nobody (left in the game) knows about. When we returned to the game we convinced everybody that as Chamber returnees we weren't allowed to win the rewards from Broth of the Weld. Instead he snagged his first preference item with a score of over 400 (he found an exploit to wall clip), and I snagged my second preference item (the cryosleep) with a score of 88 (I found an exploit involving the Fairly Bottle and Whim Waker). We both wanted the bomb because it sounded cool.
So I'm high-key expecting Oven to end up doing something kick-arse with that thing. Especially since Urbosa and Kass are likely going to be plotting after each other with it being public knowledge that Urbosa tried to screw him.
Oh...Oaki...if only you knew...
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Korgu Chideh
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Post by Korgu Chideh on May 21, 2020 22:49:05 GMT -5
In conclusion, Guides and Spectators, it has been an involved round. My priority first and foremost is going to be to engage with my fellow competitors and commit my attention to the game at hand. My second focus is on my job. If I am unable to answer your queries in a timely fashion, then please be respectful of that — I appreciate that you are all invested in my actions and thoughts, but at the same time I have no doubt you have a full grasp of how hectic and stressful that last Tribal was. Snide remarks tossed my way (or any players' direction) because we are concentrating at more pressing issues aren't necessary. It may be easy to see us all as spokes on a wheel that will spin until the final vote is read, but please remember we are all people dealing with very real stressors within and outside of this game. *Steps off soap box* At the outset, Urbosa is right on the facts, and I will shortly go withdraw. However, I think the underlying logic is flawed, and I want to speak somewhat on that underlying reasoning as it's something that's been on my mind these last few cycles. It's something that I have spent some time on trying to put into the correct words; I think my reasoning is sound but I also think there is much room for disagreement. This is reflective of my own views and I don't write this to suggest that it must become doctrine; that is certainly not the case. I am also heavily procrastinating other things presently.
The argument here boils down to that gameplay needs to come first, and confessionals come after; that less 'pressing' matters must wilt in the face of the game and that, therefore, confessionals can be ignored where needed. I think that this is not a supportable proposition. Confessionals have never been extraneous to anonymous games on this website. They have existed since Survivor: Mushroom Kingdom, and they have never not existed in anonymous, even when (in rare and generally agreed as misguided circumstances) spectators have been barred from posted in them. They are a reflection, I think, of three facts: that confessionals are plainly part of a fidelitous approach to the source material, that these games have a significant and necessary internal component, and that these games are not played in a vacuum, but are watched. The discussion and context in which players engage with Survivor-as-she-is-played has moved in this direction: we speak of players being 'cast' and of players being 'characters'. Casting itself selects some players and prevents others from playing; not, of course, as punishment, but in recognition of the limited places available and the need to create an ideal playing experience, ascertained by qualitative applications rather than pure demonstrated gameplay ability or ELO. Games are dissected after the fact and 'opened up' so that players and third-parties can continue to experience the game after it has ended, in a way and format deeper, distinct and distinguishable from a summary of substantive game decisions, which can be summarised in voting tables. I think, in light of all this, that it is not reasonable to consider that Survivor games are only about the game to the exclusion of all else, or that confessionals are an inferior consideration to the to-and-fro of a game. Confessionals (and indeed, forums generally) enliven and sustain the context that the community has established. An argument that confessionals, not being necessary to gameplay, may therefore be disregarded in my opinion fails. We establish tribal forums that are used mostly for non-game and challenge discussion--but sometimes they are not. We ask tribal council questions that aim to achieve fidelity with the televised product while rarely being given gameplay import by players--but sometimes they are. Confessionals themselves are used to order players' minds and thoughts and to record information for later game use--but sometimes they are not. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to clearly delineate what is structurally part of gameplay and what is not part of gameplay. I do not think that drawing such a line is logical; to me, it is an arbitrary and necessarily unjustified decision. The historical function of the game's components and current practice reflects this. I do not think, therefore, that it works to argue that confessionals can be divisible or severed from gameplay. They are indivisible; inseverable; inviolate. The nature of this ambiguity and inseverability is reflected in the rules themselves, enshrining two objectives which must necessarily, in fact, come into conflict:
These objectives are named main and secondary, but this is no argument to say that one must necessarily take precedence over the other. It would not meet the purpose of including both objectives within the rules to construct one as dominating and subsuming the other. They must both have content and, in construction, must both be given content such that they have effect. If anything, such an argument injures a proposition that confessionals are less 'pressing': if the main objective is to have fun, it is difficult to see how confessionals will not, therefore, be material.
If confessionals enliven the game's context, and necessarily form part of the game's gameplay such that they cannot be distinguished, I see no other conclusion but that if a player in applying obliges to play the game, there must within that be an obligation on players to engage with their confessional and to do so in a timely way. Confessionals cannot be regarded, in the general, as extraneous, voluntary or inferior to other needs of the game: they are the game, and must be addressed with the equal vigour that all other elements of the game demand; in applying to play, in my opinion, a person agrees to that equal attention. Such an obligation, by its nature, is an obligation on those players to those outside the game-state, whether they be unsuccessful applicants, spectators, moderators or future third-party viewers. Such an obligation necessarily arises, as outlined above, out of the inherent nature of Survivor-as-she-is-played in this community. This obligation is not necessarily enforceable, but it nonetheless ought to be binding. Engagement, even if marked with occasional lapses, will be sufficient; I do think, however, that the obligation becomes more strained as lapses increase or become regular.
I think there will necessarily be exceptions to this rule: such exceptions will rely on all the circumstances, but of course (for instance) a time-poor and high-pressure tribal council may demand full attention, and real life may, from time to time, intervene. But such circumstances will not extend for a 24 hour period, and will naturally ebb and flow with the usual patterns of players logging on and off; that ebb and flow is opportunity enough, in my view, to perform the obligations that players have to those of us outside the game-state. If such circumstances do last for an extended period, then I think non-engagement with a confessional will be the least of that player-slot's problems.
Likewise, a player's engagement with a confessional need not bend to the singular will of spectators and third parties. I think that any bona fide engagement will be enough, whether or not it comports with whatever specific courses of action are desired by others. But there must be some kind of substantive engagement; it is not enough to hold the confessional as an afterthought. There is no bright line beyond which afterthoughts become engagement; what is needed is a genuine reflection on the game, giving an insight to the internal life of the character. Such insight is certainly possible in brevity, but players must in all cases genuinely seek to provide it. It must be recognised that this obligation exists alongside obligations from non-player parties to players: mods, of course, but spectators and other actors as well to restrain themselves, preserve the integrity of the game-state, treat players with respect and dignity, and so on. I think in relation to Urbosa I am in breach of these obligations, and that she is not in breach of hers. I think on reflection that lapses in meeting the confessional obligation, where they are rare and compensated for after the fact, are entirely benign and not a breach. I have left my frustration at some players apparently ignoring this obligation get to me in a way that is not fair to other players. But I do think that the heart of the obligation remains: players ought not to treat the confessional as secondary. It plainly is not. It is part of the game, and players ought to play the game.
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Zelda
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Post by Zelda on May 21, 2020 23:14:33 GMT -5
I see where you are coming from. I guess for me, I have a hard time doing confessionals as things are happening. I do give insight, but it usually doesn't happen for awhile into the cycle or until after the round is over.
I don't want to say much else as I don't want to speak for everyone's individual situation. But the fact of the matter is we are in the middle of a pandemic and so there are people who have other obligations that aren't just playing a game. This is unprecedented and so things we are so used to getting out of confessional content sometimes are not going to be able to be gotten as fast. So I can empathize with anyone who is not constantly available during this difficult time.
It's certainly affected my ability to be around and available and as engaged. If you notice, a lot of the stuff that happens is done by either Impa or King Hyrule. My availability suffered a lot in recent months and I have to empathize that some people are more available and others are less available.
Outside of the norm? Confessionalizing is an important part of the game, but I also understand it's difficult to clearly articulate everything you want in the heat of an insane tribal if you are feeling like you are playing for survival. As someone who has been chastised in the past for having a "bad or lacking confessional" due to outside life related situations I can relate a lot here.
Those are the two cents I feel comfortable sharing right now. Might add more post game.
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Impa
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Post by Impa on May 21, 2020 23:36:44 GMT -5
I know for me, I am not a good confessionalist often because a lot of the times I find confessionals to be a chore or something that is purely an obligation when I only have so much social energy that I can pour into writing anything and most of that I put into PMs. Sure confessionals are incredibly important, but if a game is supposed to fun, feeling obligated to post things every single round even if I don't have many thoughts to actually share will kill my fun and spectators coming into my confessional demanding content or bitching about my lack of content is only going to make me want to post all that much less. And comments that I read post game that indicate what I said wasn't liked at all or critiqued and criticized also doesn't make me want to confessionalize more either in the future. So that is a thing to consider as well I think because I'm not the only one who feels that way.
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Korgu Chideh
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Post by Korgu Chideh on May 22, 2020 1:54:13 GMT -5
i think it's valid to lead an argument that especially the current circumstances create a context so unique as to frustrate completely the normal operation of things. i think i've been operating on the basis of the old assumptions and i'll gladly cop that. i think i would like to challenge an assumption. confessionalising is difficult to do 'well' but i don't think well-ness is an element of sufficiency. i don't think the obligation extends to whether the confessionalising is adequate, per se; i seek to establish an obligation of 'genuine' or 'bona fide' attempt.
i think it's completely okay to be 'crap' at confessionalising, for three reasons: 1) it lets people practice that element of externalising their internal processes; 2) it focuses on the heart of the obligation, which is to obtain insight, not necessarily to be skilled in providing it; and 3) i do not think it is fair on the part of us (indeed i would suggest it is an obligation of non-players actors to avoid this) to suggest that insight genuinely given, no matter its 'quality', is not sufficient. i think this last counter-obligation is frequently dropped or forgotten and more effort is needed on that part; certainly that's the case for myself.
but i don't want to derail any more than i have already as well; i recognise this conversation is mostly theoretical where it counts and right now players be challenge-ing |
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Saas Ko'sah
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Post by Saas Ko'sah on May 22, 2020 2:43:16 GMT -5
I honestly can't imagine playing a game without confessionalizing. Like I need to externalize my thoughts to objectively consider them, and without a confessional I wouldn't be able to do that. My confessionals are as much for me as they are for spectators and mods.
Also I just like to talk in general though and it takes very little effort for me to confessionalize. When I'm playing a game I'm already doing that thinking whether I'm typing it out or not, so typing it out is just a matter of taking that small additional step.
With that said, I definitely recognize that it isn't effortless for everyone, and in heat-of-the-moment TCs, there definitely are times I fail at confessing too, especially if I'm phone-PMing. I overall agree with Korgu's argument though, when you sign up for a game you are agreeing to confessionalize and if you're going to be unable to do so regularly, you probably don't have enough time to commit to the game.
I actually don't know if people can be 'crap' at confessionalizing. Some people are naturals but generally speaking, the more you write in your confessional, the better it is. That's definitely not always the case, and sometimes you have especially good confessionalists who can make the most the few posts they make, but usually we just want insight into what players are thinking and as much of it as possible, and then we can do the work into shaping it into a coherent narrative in our minds in the context of the rest of the game. When someone, especially someone with power and influence, isn't confessing, they leave huge gaps in our understanding of the game, which is why it's so frustrating. We don't really want to know anything other than what the person is thinking about when they make their decisions, and in theory they'd already be doing that thinking, so it shouldn't be that much of a leap to jump to confessing it, but again, for some people, that transition might not be as easy or streamlined.
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Korgu Chideh
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Post by Korgu Chideh on May 22, 2020 2:44:47 GMT -5
I actually don't know if people can be 'crap' at confessionalizing. Some people are naturals but generally speaking, the more you write in your confessional, the better it is. That's definitely not always the case, and sometimes you have especially good confessionalists who can make the most the few posts they make, but usually we just want insight into what players are thinking and as much of it as possible, and then we can do the work into shaping it into a coherent narrative in our minds in the context of the rest of the game. When someone, especially someone with power and influence, isn't confessing, they leave huge gaps in our understanding of the game, which is why it's so frustrating. We don't really want to know anything other than what the person is thinking about when they make their decisions, and in theory they'd already be doing that thinking, so it shouldn't be that much of a leap to jump to confessing it, but again, for some people, that transition might not be as easy or streamlined. oh this is a much better put version of my last post, read this instead |
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